SD12

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Everything posted by SD12

  1. SD12 added a post in a topic Variator Performance   

    Not sure how converting from a CVT to a centrifugal clutch  would work for you, switching from a transmission with clutch to a clutch. Might be fun for doing doughnuts in the dirt but pretty much unusable on the roads.
    Efficiency: I read somewhere in the past that CVT's were less efficient than manual transmissions but better than automatics. I think they were also better than hydro-static's. That may have changed because I know automatics have evolved a lot in the last decade or so. Still CVT's aren't bad, especially in small engine machines.
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  2. SD12 added a post in a topic Variator Performance   

    Something that makes these sorts of measurements and comparisons difficult is that these CVT's have no sort of "position memory" after handling if you will. If you spin up the CVT and spin down several times it will take a similar position set (level of the sheaves where  the belt rests), but if you were to remove the belt and reinstall, it will likely take a different position than it had before you removed it.
    I found from experience that after any sort of adjustment or handling you need to exercise the CVT by spinning it up and down to have any sort of accuracy of position.
    I guest there is also a possibility that the driven pulley Torque Sensing pins / slots could be the limiting factor. I've been trying to envision what would happen if the pins were removed and the CVT was spun up for testing. Probably have to have the wheel off the ground because any sort of load would cause the moveable sheave to freewheel. But if the belt actually traveled further in the pulley's then that would suggest that the slots are the limiting factor. Then maybe extending the slots would be a viable option.
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  3. SD12 added a post in a topic Variator Performance   

    I looked up the Comet brand of CVT's. Their still around in some form and big with the go-cart conversions. Seems like they deal with the China copies also.
    Those kits are physically sized somewhat between the snowmobile and GY6 CVT's. The Comet is more of a proper design than the GY6.
    There is a 30 series kit that is asymmetrical and would probably be the best option.  You would have to use some of the kit and have to make up the adaptors. That would be an interesting project.
    https://www.gokartsupply.com/tavapp.htm
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  4. SD12 added a post in a topic Variator Performance   

    If you want max performance then max hp and max throttle is key, no way around it. Lots of good tuning info on the forums for that. You can get very good advise on which parts may work for your situation. You could take one machine and tune it differently for different riders, the more different the riding styles, the more different the tune.
    Using a larger pulley diameter system may improve things a bit, probably not a lot. These systems are kind of sized to fit. Snowmobile pulleys are quite a bit larger, both diameter and mass / weight. That larger diameter has a huge benefit. Snowmobiles have a ground speed range from 0 to triple digits using a single speed just like the GY6 system. But they also have the hp to handle those speeds. A 50cc or 150cc wont.
    If you were to custom build a CVT system using something more like a scaled down snowmobile design I think you might see some big improvements.
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  5. SD12 added a post in a topic Variator Performance   

    I watched a Utube video of someone grinding out ramp ends of the variator sheave. The theory seemed to be that if any restriction was removed there, then the flyweights would go farther outwards and upshift farther.
    Something in the CVT is going to be the mechanical limit and if happens to be the sheave ramps, then yeah the CVT shift range could be extended till it gets to whatever would be the next limit.
    Thing is, centrifugal force is very powerful and when added to these engine type rpm's, its something to be aware of. And messing around at the outer perimeter of the sheave is the worst place.
    I did some hack math. Using an example of a 5" diameter sheave and 8000 rpm.
    Any thing at the perimeter of the sheave would have a speed of 2094 f/s (feet per second).
    For some perspective, a 38 special would have a muzzle speed of  1000 f/s. A 9mm at 1258 f/s and a M1 at 2000 f/s, all approximates.
    If the thing did grenade, the cover is there and would be a huge safety net, more than most CVT machines have. Course from the cutch bell back is a direct connection to the drive wheel and anything that might plug that up could lock up the wheel. And the folks that turn the covers into some version of a ankle-biter are removing that safety net.
    I'm not much of a safety cop, but that sort of hacking is really upping the risks. Even a unnoticed crack could be catastrophic with those forces.
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  6. SD12 added a post in a topic Variator Performance   

    Here's a debatable opinion involving the GY6 type variator.  Roller vs sliders.
    The rollers fall into what I would call bad engineering design. Using a roller as a wedge between two ramps.
    I haven't used sliders. I think the rule of thumb is that a slider generates the cg force of a roller approx. 2 grams heavier. I think that is because the sliders work way more efficiently than rollers. More of the cg force gets transferred to the pulley sheave whereas some of the rollers cg force gets wasted in scuffing and binding.
    I believe that while a slider works as a wedge and forces the ramps apart reasonably well, a roller is also used as a wedge in trying to force the ramps apart but doesn't work very well. The roller would have to roll on one ramp and skid backwards on the opposing ramp. At some point the roller eventually just stops rolling and skids on both ramps. That is where the flat spots come from.
    The flat spotting isn't consistent either. I have had roller sets where one roller had flat spotted down to the metal and another of that batch had much less flat spotting, maybe several small flat spots. I think that is because one roller locked up sooner than the other.
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  7. SD12 added a post in a topic Variator Performance   

    I want to honor your request to keep this thread on the variator. I am pretty knowledgeable on the Torque Sensing function of the driven pulley and I can throw in my 2 cents if you intend to make a thread covering that.
    I tend to use analogies a lot on this sort of stuff and I like to do some comparisons to snowmobile CVT's and even car auto transmissions. I try not to go too deep so as not to cause confusion but I think it can help. The snowmobile world has quite a bit written up on this and can be very helpful if you learn up on the basic functions and understand the differences. Even the owner/service manuals might include a pretty nice theory of operation.
    One of the differences to snowmobile CVT's is that they tend to make a lot of use of the  mid range of throttle and performance.  With the larger pulley diameters (more range), higher hp, faster speeds and the road conditions (scooters on smooth pavement vs. sleds off road / varied terrain), I think even the no-fear squids would be surprised at how much they are actually off the throttle on a snowmobile. Not sure how much of that compares to a scooter with the performance range being much smaller on a scooter between no-throttle and full-throttle.
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  8. SD12 added a post in a topic Variator Performance   

    Good stuff.
    I'm with you on some of your misconception 1 and on some not so much.
    Lighter flyweights do make more acceleration. It has to do with a different misconception.
    Most if not all of the CVT discussion in these scooter forums is oriented around max performance, WOT, highest top speeds. But the CVT is designed for more than that.
    I'll use an example using made up numbers:
    Engine rpm at clutch engagement - 3000 rpm
    CVT "tuned" engine rpm - 7000 rpm (This is a maximum rpm that the CVT trys to limit by upshifting.)
    CVT controlled engine rpm operating range - 4000 rpm (7000-3000)
    The operating range is a big part of the CVT that tends to be ignored by these scooter forums. I'll wager there are scooters all over the world that the operators seldom use full throttle or run the engines up to "tuned" rpm. They aren't getting to top speed of course but the machines are upshifting to some extent and the folks are puttin around just fine.
    If you impose the ground speed through the drivetrain up to the drive pulley, you can look at it as engine rpm - mph. Lightening the flyweights equates to a higher engine per mph. That's the same effect as the lower gearing, better engine torque that you describe.
    So at takeoff your rpm's are closer to the 3000 than the 7000 (not much hp) and the lighter flyweights allow the engine to use that lower gearing effect to increase rpm's - mph a bit.
    The speed part I agree with. Different flyweights effect the upshift of the CVT. Once the CVT up shifts to full shiftout then the flyweight's job is essentially done and different flyweights won't matter.
     
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  9. SD12 added a post in a topic eZuma   

    Well yeh on a load circuit you get what is needed, larger voltages will increase power. That would be similar to the starter circuit on a "normal" vehicle using heavy wires between the battery and the starter.
    I was referring to your complaint about running 72 volts to the handlebars instead of a relay setup on what I assume would be a control circuit. Engineers do that because they want to and its not just the Chinese.
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  10. SD12 added a post in a topic eZuma   

    Engineers love voltages above 12v. Lets them use smaller wires (higher gauge) due to Ohm's law. Smaller wires are cheaper, less weight, take less space, etc.
    I had several debates with engineers at a US based world recognized company that were betting that basic automotive electrical systems would be replaced with 48v dc systems by    2015. We weren't directly in the automotive industry but they had associations. And that wasn't with electric cars or even hybreds, just basic vehicles. With tiny wires all over the things that are fragile as hell.
    They would come up with all of these hair brain ideas and poor bastards like me would have to try to implement them.
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  11. SD12 added a post in a topic Shocked this actually worked / Tire replacement   

    Good job. Your video's are nice and clear - good lighting, Wish I could manage that.
    I noticed you shamelessly cast aside your rim protectors pretty quickly in the task, been there. I think every tire I ever changed required a 15 minute fight and then it would just about fall on. Craziest thing.
    I cut some pieces of garden hose and would slide them on the tire spoon. They would cut through after a few uses but the good news is that you get a lot of pieces from a garden hose.
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  12. SD12 added a post in a topic Final Drive Gear questions?   

    The torque sensing is in play from bottom to top.. Physics would dictate that the load presented to the driven pulley would increase with speed.
    I actually find it easier to think of it as load sensing rather than torque sensing. But either way the amount that the load is leveraged against the driven pulley movable sheave is affected by the  angles of the slots. So if  the slot angles vary (curved) then the sensing impact will change throughout the CVT shifting.
    Basic CVT tuning can cover up some of the torque sensing parameters and I think that some folks may be "washing out" some of the TS benefits by over tuning the flyweight/contra spring setup.
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  13. SD12 added a post in a topic Final Drive Gear questions?   

    Something to keep in  mind is that these sorts of gearing charts and calculators work quite nicely in manual geared systems. You record the various gear ratios along the drive train along with the drive wheel OD, calculate and have a accurate answer - if the engine is spinning x rpm's then the machine is going y mph. But these GY6 machines have basically a second transmission, the CVT, which has infinite gearing. That can schew the math.
    I used to have a calculator that I made up for snowmobiles, same sort of thing, but I couldn't get any where trying to include the CVT ratio's.  I decided to consider the CVT only at the 1:1 ratio which essentially ignores it from the equation. But if the CVT can actually up shift beyond the 1:1 (I don't know if these can or not) that will add to the top speed if it can pull it.
    The other thing with the CVT is the Torque Sensing feature of the driven pulley (angled slots) . For example the Torque Sensing will see a higher geared gearbox as an additional load and try to counteract it by forcing a lower gear ratio within the CVT.
    Of course this is theory and how much of it translates to real world I don't know. I'm not sure if these smaller CVT get as much impact from the Torque Sensing as the larger CVT's.  That's why testing is so important.
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  14. SD12 added a post in a topic Belt Buster   

    If was nice to see you riding reasonably in the video. Too many show the rider acting like a dildo. Kudo's
     
    Speaking of dildo's, the driver in the white SUV gave you maybe a whole foot of space during your ordeal. Buck say's they were riding you before the incident as well.
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  15. SD12 added a post in a topic How does this happen?   

    The US scrapper's have been accepting crap that they never would have taken in the past. That's  because the Chinese would buy it. There's your result.
     
    On the axle, I have a ASW (name changed to ALM - American Land Master ) 200 UTV. The 7150, 6150 and 200 have some similar parts.
    I think they have some good tech folks there, just might not be the one that takes your call. They may be able to sub a different part number for you.
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  16. SD12 added a post in a topic Scrappy dog anyone?   

    I included a video of my GY6 150 in a four wheel cart, ASW / Menards YS200, hope it shows up.  I hooked up a tube to the crankcase breather going into a cup of water with the engine idling . 
    That is a totally stock healthy engine. No oil usage at all.
    You can get an idea of the amount of air movement / turbulence .
    I'm curious, with all the head replacements going on with these powerplants, do the new heads come with the vent baffleplate installed or do you use your old one, or have to fab something to fit?
    Breather_bubbles.mp4
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  17. SD12 added a post in a topic Low RPM @ takeoff, runs fine at speed   

    MJSfoto1956, you make mention of doing a uphill standing start to tune your cvt. I'm still trying to get a handle on these smaller cvt's (I'm pretty well versed on larger snowmobile cvt's. 
    Generally "normal" loads would be dealt with by the basic cvt tuning and "abnormal" loads (uphills , unusually hard acceleration , extra weight such as a passenger or cargo) would be dealt with by the Torque Sensing function.
    Even though the cvt functions have a combined effect and multi-run comparisons are very important, you may be better off doing your base tuning on flat and level with "normal" throttle.
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  18. SD12 added a post in a topic Engine Design and modification   

    Here's another "outside of the box" design.
    Arctic Cat use's this piston in their 600cc, 2 cyl, 2 stroke direct injection engine.
    The slot allows one of the fuel injectors to spray directly on the piston pin bearing.
    Compare this to the photo Pistonguy provided and notice the difference in skirt lengths.
    His racing piston is crazy short and this is plenty long in order for the slot to be safely enclosed..
    Now this piston isn't in a factory race engine, but AC claims it has 600 class leading 120+ hp.
    I've always wondered how much skirt to cylinder rubbing goes on and how these different respective lengths would affect that.
     

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  19. SD12 added a post in a topic How does this happen?   

    That's the first thing I thought of also. Does someone like to reach for the impact driver whenever they are spinning hardware off and on?
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  20. SD12 added a post in a topic Typical 150cc GY6 Switched 12v DC Circuits   

    Oop's, miscommunication alert.
    My point there was with the unregulated vs. regulated. I think there are far more scooters with AC  headlights than with DC headlights although DC systems seem to be getting more common.
    You can't rely on headlights being on or off as a method of determining AC or DC.
    As far as the diagram you presented, I thought you were using that to modify your machine. That diagram has DC headlights. I don't think it is as similar to your machine as you may think. Or maybe not?
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  21. SD12 added a post in a topic Typical 150cc GY6 Switched 12v DC Circuits   

    The flameout switch is labeled left to right as IC, E, AE, TL I believe.
    IC = ignition circuit? its wired as a kill switch
    E = Earth? ground
    AE = no clue. The wiring goes to the meter indication (dash light), the tail light and the headlight dimmer switch.
    TL = no clue. The wiring is the switched 12v dc + circuit (your black wire circuit).
    That switch is shown in the lower left switch block.
    The switch block shows two positions or modes.
    1. part circle with no x (kill off ?)
    2. part circle with x (kill on ?)
    I believe that the switch block is shown wrong. I think that the jumper on the right (AE - TL) should be a row up (kill off ?)
     
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  22. SD12 added a post in a topic Typical 150cc GY6 Switched 12v DC Circuits   

    The auto choke is AC powered. That is the only thing on the AC side of the lighting system.
    The ignition is AC powered as well but that is powered by the AC ignition power coil not the lighting system.
    I haven't seen  a GY6 electrical system yet that used  unregulated AC.
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  23. SD12 added a post in a topic Typical 150cc GY6 Switched 12v DC Circuits   

    The circuit you provided has DC headlights in original format. There are two bulbs that each have a low beam and a high beam. Your mod replaces those with a low beam bulb and a high beam bulb. That will affect the way you wire the relay control circuit. Even so, that is a DC circuit.
    Your switched 12vdc + is not complete. Going be hard to explain - I"ll do it in stages. This is where I wish I was better with graphics or  video. I'm going off a diagram I have titled TaoTao Quantum Tour 150. Its a bit easier for me to read the text and I think it is the same as yours.
    This pertains to your black lines on the diagram and I will refer to lines that cross but do not make electrical contact as "crossing lines" and lines that cross and do make electrical contact as "intersecting lines".
    1. Going to the ignition switch terminal "Batt" go down 7 lines. That is a intersection (I'll call it I1). It only goes left
    2. From I1 go left a short distance to I2.
    3. From I2 go up to the Flameout switch far right terminal TL.
    4. Go back to I2 and go left to "Meter" "oil press gauge"
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  24. SD12 added a post in a topic Typical 150cc GY6 Switched 12v DC Circuits   

    That looks great.
    Looks like a aux power plugin your adding? If so they are notorious for overloading and blowing fuses, If it does not have its own fuse, I would add one specifically for that. Otherwise you may find yourself without headlights.
    I noticed that you have AC relays for headlights, why AC. Not sure what your up to there(relay control circuits not shown) and I am curious. I think I might see a problem depending on your design.. 
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  25. SD12 added a post in a topic Typical 150cc GY6 Switched 12v DC Circuits   

    Great idea. A good way to familiarize yourself with your system. Its like solving a puzzle.
    I have that diagram labeled as a TaoTao Quantum Tour 150. Its a bit hard to read the blurry text.
    I like to go through these diagrams and find clues as to what the specs are.
    This diagram I spec'ed as:
    Stator:Single phase, 8 pole (my diagram is labeled as 8 pole), full wave, AC style.
    CDI: AC powered
    Auto choke: AC powered, 5 ohm/5 watt current limiting resistor.
    Everything except CDI and Autochoke is DC powered.
    Lighting circuit: 15 amp rated, approximately 180 watts.
    Battery: 12v 7AH.
    Side bracket flameout switch (I believe it to be a sidestand killswitch).
    Oil gage
    Various bulb wattages shown.
     
     
     
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