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What rpm main , and clutch springs do you use , and why ?

47 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I do not have a Gen3, but from the pictures I have seen compared to my Gen4, the only differences are color and clutch springs... The Gen4 has red 2k springs, the Gen3 has blue, 1k springs... But I'm pretty sure they both have the same extended pad length.....

I have used 1k setups in the past and was not happy with the results... The clutch seemed like it was always engaged......

it looks like the only diff is the color of the pads , blue vs green . since they usually ask which springs you want when purchasing the assembly . you see the small back plate on the gen 4 " on the pads ? I've seen that on the blue gen 3 also . not sure why its not like that on all of them . unless it changes with the size scoot you order it for ?

I use to us a 2000 main and 1500 clutch springs with the koso variator , but it seems the heavier main springs are too much for the K&S.

Edited by geh3333

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Posted (edited)

it looks like the only diff is the color of the pads , blue vs green . since they usually ask which springs you want when purchasing the assembly . you see the small back plate on the gen 4 " on the pads ? I've seen that on the blue gen 3 also . not sure why its not like that on all of them . unless it changes with the size scoot you order it for ?

I use to us a 2000 main and 1500 clutch springs with the koso variator , but it seems the heavier main springs are too much for the K&S.

...The seller you purchased from may have given you choice of clutch springs, but these have a standard configuration and the only way they come with different springs is if the seller has swapped them out.... The Gen4 is NCY part# 1200--1202 and every one will come with 2k springs,  Samething with Gen3... They all will have 1k clutch springs unless the seller has modified. But they ship from NCY in stated form. 

BTW, who did you order from that offered you a choice? I have not seen many sellers offer that kind of option... Sometimes they will include an extra set that you have to install yourself, but I have not seen many sellers performing the spring swap themselves. 

Why would you mix 1500 springs with a 2000k contra? Your pads will be trying to grab the bell before the clutch is even engaged... :rofl2:  From the info I gathered so far, you're supposed to match your spring sets for best performance results.  

So what do you use now?

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Edited by DMartin95

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Posted (edited)

Gy6 racing team out of PR has the options. As did scooter elements. A few other eBay sellers do this. When it comes to mixing the springs. Its completely optional. Let's say you have a 2000 main and 1500 clutch springs. This allows your clutch to engage near 3-4 k rpms . the clutch pulley will begin to open long after the clutch engages.  Its completely different from let's say having a weaker main spring and stronger clutch springs , then what u say is true. The clutch may begin to open before the clutch engages. However I believe the spring ratings are not the same with the two. Meaning the 1000 rpm clutch springs are made to engage 1000 Rpms after normal idle . so 1000 rpm springs should begin to engage around 2700 rpms. Now the main springs are slightly different when it comes to how they are rated. A 1000 rpm main spring will begin to allow the pulley to open 1000 rpms after your stock rated clutch springs engage. If they where rated the same way , a stock spring would allow the pulley to open the same time the stock clutch springs engage. This would be counter productive . so a 2000 main spring will begin to allow the pulley to open 2000 rpms after a set of stock clutch springs allow the pads to begin to engage. 1500 rpm clutch springs will allow the rpms to build before the clutch engages . you will then have a slightly longer range of takeoff before the pulley begins to open compared to 2000 rpm clutch springs . you can use stock clutch springs with a 2000 main and the time before the pulley opens will be greater. 

In my opinion what springs the clutch comes with is irrelevant since every setup has to be tuned properly with the springs there setup works best with. Anyone I have ever seen with the 3rg gen clutch assembly had to pick the spring setup they wanted.  Actually all the eBay sellers I've seen selling them , ask what springs you want . if I'm not mistaken even most scoot sites who sell.then ask also . I would expect if ordered straight from ncy at dealers cost , they may only come with certain springs.  Not sure.

Edited by geh3333

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Posted (edited)

Gy6 racing team out of PR has the options. As did scooter elements. A few other eBay sellers do this. When it comes to mixing the springs. Its completely optional. Let's say you have a 2000 main and 1500 clutch springs. This allows your clutch to engage near 3-4 k rpms . the clutch pulley will begin to open long after the clutch engages.  Its completely different from let's say having a weaker main spring and stronger clutch springs , then what u say is true. The clutch may begin to open before the clutch engages. However I believe the spring ratings are not the same with the two. Meaning the 1000 rpm clutch springs are made to engage 1000 Rpms after normal idle . so 1000 rpm springs should begin to engage around 2700 rpms. Now the main springs are slightly different when it comes to how they are rated. A 1000 rpm main spring will begin to allow the pulley to open 1000 rpms after your stock rated clutch springs engage. If they where rated the same way , a stock spring would allow the pulley to open the same time the stock clutch springs engage. This would be counter productive . so a 2000 main spring will begin to allow the pulley to open 2000 rpms after a set of stock clutch springs allow the pads to begin to engage. 1500 rpm clutch springs will allow the rpms to build before the clutch engages . you will then have a slightly longer range of takeoff before the pulley begins to open compared to 2000 rpm clutch springs . you can use stock clutch springs with a 2000 main and the time before the pulley opens will be greater. 

In my opinion what springs the clutch comes with is irrelevant since every setup has to be tuned properly with the springs there setup works best with. Anyone I have ever seen with the 3rg gen clutch assembly had to pick the spring setup they wanted.  Actually all the eBay sellers I've seen selling them , ask what springs you want . if I'm not mistaken even most scoot sites who sell.then ask also . I would expect if ordered straight from ncy at dealers cost , they may only come with certain springs.  Not sure.

check this out . this site sells the 3rd gen with 1500 springs , and in the pick the clutch pads have 2000 springs !! I bet it will be different everywhere.  https://www.scooterdomain.com/ncy-super-transmission-set-yamaha-125-cygnus-bws-by-ncy-1200-1047.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwxMetBRDJx6Sz2p7DsQ0SJADJHAqNebmi7JtWJHJ7L3PhQG4gZ3f6m6-zL-kBv8XaV1jqzhoCzHbw_wcB

Edited by geh3333

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Posted

Actually they clutch springs in the pics are orange not red , so they are 1500 springs. 

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Posted

I miss read your post a little. You mentioned that the pads would grab the bell before the clutch engages.  That's actually what you want. You want the clutch to engage the bell before the pulley begins to open. This way you have good takeoff. Even with a  2000 main with 2000 clutch springs , the clutch pads should engage the bell before the pulley begins to open. That's where the ratings of the main and three clutch springs should be different. You do not want the pulley to open before the clutch engages , this would be a waist  of your low gearing. You want the pads to engage then after you begin to takeoff the pulley should begin to open. 

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Posted

I did a quick eBay search. It seems most come with either 1000 or 1500 springs with no option of changing. The only ones offering the choice are the bigger eBay scoot stores like gy6racing or I've seen  josh's closeouts offer this also. Scooter elements use to offer this but I don't think they are up and running anymore. . even ordered straight from taiwan I noticed they come with either 1000 or 1500 springs. 

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Posted

Here is another ,  1000 main " compression" spring , never mentions the clutch springs and the pic shows 2000 rpm springs.    http://www.scooterworks.com/ncy-super-transmission-set--genuine--gy6-products-1325.php#.VbK4onrD-BY

:nono: No, and No. :)

In both of your links, they have matching contra and clutch springs....

NCY makes a 1000 RPM contra spring in black...  Every single "CVT/Clutch kit" NCY makes has matching springs.... 

NCY is an actual manufacturer, not just a vendor. Their website for all their clutch products is right here ... 

They sell clutch/variator (CVT) kits and every single one of them has matching springs.... You're letting colors screw up what you're looking at.... 

Your first link is not a clutch for a GY6, it's for a Yamaha Zuma.... Even though it's a gen3 clutch and it is blue, that one has 1500 contra and matching 1500 clutch springs.... However, remember, were talking about GY6's, not Yamaha ZUMA....  The NCY GY6 Gen3 is the one that has the red springs.... In your second link, that is for a GY6 and that one does have the red 1000k springs and matching a black 1000rpm clutch....

-------------------------------------------------

I'm not quite sure where you're getting your info from, so could you reference where you're getting your info from? 

What I have learned, the two work together, (clutch springs and contra) They have a direct link and are supposed to work in unison, not independent..... But I'm always open to learning and if there's something I'm not understanding correctly, I want to get it sorted out.....

Here, check out this link from the GY6racingteam (PR ebay seller) 

He does not appear to sell them the way you said he did... 

 

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Posted

In my last post I mentioned that the red springs were actually orange, so they are being sold with matched 1500 or matched 1000 springs.  

Yes they do work in unison , but not the way you think. The springs do not need to be matched to work properly. Its a complete tuning process of which works best for your setup. 

This is the thing. The three clutch springs is for your takeoff rpms . so if you want higher rpms and a stronger takeoff you will go higher on the clutch springs. Many use a stock main but go up on the three clutch springs. In that case the pulley may begin to open a little too soon , so its not really good to use stiffer clutch spring then the main spring.The main spring works to keep the pulley closed until a certain rpm. Some also use a stiffer main spring but keep the stock clutch springs. This I completely normal and pretty common amongst most of the members. This allows the clutch to engage the bell , and keep the pulley from opening too soon causing great takeoff because your in a lower gear longer. They work together , but the both need to be tuned to the liking of the rider. 

Even though they may come as a pair from some places , it is not at all a must to run both matching springs together. When I purchased mine I ordered the 3rd gen assembly with a 2000 main and 1500 rpm clutch springs. My clutch engaged way too high with the 2000 rpm clutch springs . I actually have a set at the house I ordered about a year ago. To be honest , this is the first time I heard someone say they had to be pair together with the same rpms springs. I'm going to start a thread about what springs everyone is using, to see the variations that are being used. 

The main thing is that the 2000 main springs are mainly for racing. The pads engage at a very high rpm due to the 2000 clutch springs , and the pulley stays closed longer and on many applications the pulley will not even open full because of how tight the 2000 main is. That's what was happening with my setup with the k&s and the koso. Its great for racing but not for everyday riding. Right now I'm running all stock springs in my ncy assembly with the k&s variator. If your rpms are lower then u like and you are achieving full belt climb with the roller weights , you can up the main spring so your rpms will be greater . I'm 100% sure about not having to match the ratings on the springs in order for the assembly to function properly.  I know what you are saying . your saying in order for the assembly to work as it should , you should match the rating oF the springs. Over the past 4 years I've spoke with many members including members more knowledgeable then I am , who tune their CVT with unmatched springs. That's the nice thing about the CVT systems , you can fine tune even the clutch to you personal liking .

The main thing to remember is that the pulley and the clutch pad assembly each do two different jobs. The pulley opens allowing for the " gear ratio " change , and the pad assemble allows you to adjust it so you can have a stronger takeoff . with both tuned in properly , you can get them to work to your liking.  . I'll start a thread for this subject. 

Thanks , george

Read this ,   i just found it .   http://www.buggynews.com/torque-spring-clutch-spring-rpm-match-t13700.html

 

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Posted (edited)

Here we go , this is a great video ,    https://youtu.be/4DY3fp03pWs

This is exactly what I was talking about with the pulley opening too soon .

Edited by geh3333

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Posted (edited)

Here is a statement made by the author of the video .    I honestly just found this video , lol. 

The contra spring does not have to match the clutch springs. There's no reason you have to use a 2,000RPM contra spring to use 2,000RPM clutch springs. I do agree that the combo of rollers and contra spring and clutch springs all have to work together, but they do not have to match. The purpose of the video was simply to show something that a lot of people never think about. Many people install the stiffest springs and assume that because RPM is higher and nearer peak output that they must be the best choice, failing to realize they're taking off in "2nd gear".
 
so I would assume the main spring should be rated a little different , but it seems as if they may be rated using the same method. This could be an issue just like it shows in the video . its a very bad way to rate the main spring. Then again this is why tuning the clutch assembly with the proper springs is so important. You want to take off in the lowest gear possibly .
Edited by geh3333

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Posted

I used to use a 2000 main and 1500 rpm clutch springs. This setup was perfect with my old setut , but right now I m using all stock springs . the k&s variator has no need for tighter springs compared to the koso. I'm able to run the rpms with the roller weights only. I may try my 1000 main spring again when I get a new belt , but for now I have no need.

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Posted

Actually the first link is a matched spring set . yellow and orange are both 1500 rated. I have a set of orange ncy 1500 rpm.springs .

But the second is unmatched in the pic. Black is 1000 and the orange is 1500. 

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Posted

Ncy makes or made both , blue and black 1000 rpm springs. They also made yellow and orange , 1500 springs 

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Posted

This may look a little jumbled because I am merging threads,,,,... Me and George are discussing the relationship between the contra (main torque) spring and the the clutch springs....

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Posted

 I would like to compare the clutch pad length and width between the 2 generations. I have the old 3rd gen pads in the house . I can do a few measurements. 

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Posted (edited)

  CONTRA and CLUTCH PAD SPRINGS:

Stronger Contra Springs effects the RPMS required to OPEN THE CLUTCH PULLEY. The Stronger the Contra Spring the HIGHER RPMS is required to open the Clutch Pulley so the Belt gets pulled down by the Variator as it climbs up Variator. So if you want your scoot to stay in the lower part of the Variator longer you put in a Stronger Contra Spring.

Stronger Clutch Springs Require Higher Rpms to get the Pads to come out and grab the Bell to Turn Your wheel.
Stronger Clutch Springs Also means that you have to keep the RPMS up to keep the Clutch from Disengaging. Cruising around town at 25-30 your rpms will be high at those speeds you always have to keep on the throttle otherwise the Pads will disengage from the bell. 

I personally would rather have the Weakest Clutch Springs that get thrown out sooner so that the Pads are grabbing the bell say around 2500-3000 rpms. And control the RPMS with just the Contra Spring and Weights.

The way a CVT should be setup is when climbing a hill say at 6000 rpms, THE RPMS should STAY at 6000 going up the hill ONLY your speed goes down. Once you get it to that point you cannot get it any better, unless of course you add more Ponies to the motor.

 

Edited by geh3333

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Posted

Ok, I edited my post and then it copied all these pics into this post... WTF....

I wonder If I delete them, if it's going to delete them from above as well.... 

Actually the first link is a matched spring set . yellow and orange are both 1500 rated. I have a set of orange ncy 1500 rpm.springs .

But the second is unmatched in the pic. Black is 1000 and the orange is 1500. 

George....you may be paying too much attention to color, and not enough attention to the actual rating....

In both links YOU provided, the contra and clutch springs ARE IN FACT, matched... Read the specs. You tell me NCY sells kit's that don't have matching springs, then produce links showing the opposite, what's up with that? LOL :poke: 

NCY does NOT sell ANY, CVT kits that are not matched. Follow the Actual link I provided for NCY.... Go to their website and check it out...

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Something to consider, why does NCY only sell kits that are matched? Hoca also sells CVT kits and they're matched... GY6racinteam is selling them matched.... 

I appreciate the fact that you provided some links from web forums, but that's not quite what I was expecting when I asked where you were getting your info from.... :)  I was asking for something a little more "official".... Like a CVT kit from a manufacturer, or a tutorial written by a manufacturer....

And look, I don't want anyone to think this is a "pissing match"..... :rofl2:  I know that term is tossed around on these forums to describe when two members are trying to out-do each other, no matter if it's with knowledge or stuff...

 I would like to compare the clutch pad length and width between the 2 generations. I have the old 3rd gen pads in the house . I can do a few measurements. 

They're 5.2cm....

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Posted

One other difference I noticed, with the Gen4, you have to service it like a stock clutch.... 

Here's a pic I found of the Gen3 from the web, looks like you can service the springs without having to dissemble the clutch...  That would be a nice feature to have, I wonder why they stopped making like yours?

 

NCY_Gen3_Clutch_comparrison_stock.jpg

Here's the Gen4... The whole plate has to be removed. 

NCY_Gen4_Clutch_comparrison_stock.JPG

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Posted

BTW, please confirm that you went to the NCY website and viewed their CVT kits?

 Then I want you opinion.... Why does NCY, only sell kits with matching clutch and contra springs?

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Posted

The new link does list both 1500 , but the other link with the 1000 only mentions the compression spring .  I saw a mother pic of the clutch that shows the spring is the orange 1500 springs. I'll send if I can find it. 

I imagine they come from ncy matched , because its the best way to send them coming from the factory. Why mismatch from factory ? Just like a standard . let's say they send the clutch pads out from factory with red springs  . that could just be a standard. And they sell the replacement springs in different sizes. It could be a money thing . like " well send them out with all 2000 main and clutch springs " most don't use that configuration because it is a bad setup for just street cruising and it eats belts up very quick. So now the buyer needs to spend more cash to buy the proper arrangement of springs . its good for making money .

When I look at gy6racing site , you choose which torque spring you want . when I ordered mine I choose both , of course that was 4 years ago.  Their third gen pads comes with red 2000 main springs. 

Why do they come with 2000 springs when the 4th generation comes with 2000 rpm springs ?  I honestly don't know why you think they need to be matched ? The springs do 2 separate jobs , each needing to be tuned to ones liking or setup. One changes at what rpm the clutch pads engage and one when the CVT begins too shift . its a matter of preference and what someone likes best. Matching rated springs doesn't magically create nuclear fusion , or its not like we are bringing the Schwartz together to reveal a secret message , lol.    Just a little humor. 

I think we need others to reply , lol

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Posted

Here we go , here is some info from the "MRP" shop. Read the script in the video .   https://youtu.be/GXlzXFtwuwk

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Posted (edited)

Here are my old ncy pads.    As you can see i habe old stock springs in there for the heck of it .1437806498131-335493721.thumb.jpg.498b9f1437806546593-1124449555.thumb.jpg.fee7d

I still have 2 new main springs and a somewhat new 2000 main.   1437806864803-335493721.thumb.jpg.84e449

I ran my first 2000 main for nearly 3 years then bought a new one last year.

Edited by geh3333

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